Subject: Re: lists stuff
From: Mike Nordell (tamlin@algonet.se)
Date: Sun Dec 03 2000 - 08:33:50 CST
Martin Sevior wrote:
> OK I've been giving quite a lot of though to Joaquin's point of view which
> is simply that the MS Word dialog is a lot easier for people to use than
> our modeless dialog even when it is complete and without bugs. Mike asks
> to give a real world example of why I would want a Modeless dialog.
>
> I can give the example: Here it is:
>
>
> I'm busy using lists in a way similar to "Headings" in MS Word. I create:
> --------------------------------------------------
> 1. Here is a heading describing something
>
> Another paragraph under the same heading
>
> Another paragraph under heading 1.
>
> 1.1 Sublist started here
Does this "1.1" imply that you think that a List is connected to the
numbering of Headings? If that's the case, I'd say it's a serious design
mistake. A List is a List. A Heading is a Heading. Headings are frequently
used for e.g. TOC (Table Of Contents), while I've never seen a List entry
participate in a TOC.
[...]
> Every time I press return I get the next label in the list.
Just to make 100% sure that I understand you. I nterpreted that as "every
time I've written something (non-whitespace anyone?) in a list entry and
press return I get a new list entry".
OT: I just got a reason for calling them list entries. A List could actually
have a label (e.g. "List of Entries"). This lables should probably not be
displayed most of the time, but it could have a flag telling the list if it
should display its Label. That label should probably be its own paragraph,
containing forn, formatting and such. For statistics (or other useful
purposes) they could then be included in e.g. a "List Index". Wierd?
> I press
> "back space" to delete the label. For label 1.1 however I have to fire up
> the dialog and press start "sub list". Then each paragraph gets 1.2 , 1.3
> , 1.4 etc. Each of those labels has to be deleted however.
>
> Then how to a get the 2.? I press "stop list" and 1.4 turns into 2 and the
> text gets the indentation associated with 2. If the dialog was modeless
> you don't have to go through the start dialog/stop dialog business while
> manipulating the list.
OK. This sounds reasonable, except that the semantics of "Stop List" would
be to stop the list. In this case it "backs up" to the previous
"list/nesting level". Could it be solved in a more intuitive way? (I don't
know, I ask to get either some insight by someone with experience, or some
brainstorming)
> However there is one additional benefit we could give but is presently not
> in place. Right now if you delete a list label, the text indention changes
> to the same level as the following paragraph. The assumption is that most
> likely if you delete a list label you have finished with the list.
Deleting a list label? Is this the operation of selecting all text for one
list entry and deleting it, or is it the operation of pressing backspace
when no text is present for a list entry, or is it the operation of pressing
return when given a new list entry to end the list? Is it perhaps something
I didn't even list here?
Could it perhaps be fitted in the same semantics that pressing enter on an
empty list entry terminates the list? Perssing enter on an empty sub-list
entry "backs up" the list? Don't taki it as a suggestion, I'm just trying to
find a possibly more intuitive solution.
[...]
> If the dialog is active however we could make the assumption that deleting
> a list label does mean you've finished with the list and so we would
> keep the indentation at the current position even after deleting the list
> label.
???
How do you propose we delete a "list label" with the dialog active? Wouldn't
the Frame Window have to be active to perform this operation? I'm sorry if
I'm splitting hairs here, I could easily have assumed that you intended "the
Lists Dialog is visible", but since assumption is the mother of all fsck
ups... :-)
> We can also use the "resume list" feature to attach a paragraph to the
> previous list matching the indentation of the current paragraph.
This makes sense even to me. :-)
But, could it possibly be even more clear by "Attach paragraph to list"?
Just brainstorming again.
> Being
> modeles would also make it easier to fiddle with the indentation of
> paragraphs to make them match the paragraphs with list labels.
Thou speaketh wise words. Without modeless a user would easily go insane by
dismissing the dialog by pressing "OK" just to find out the indention was
*slightly* wrong.
But on the other hand, this could equally easy (or maybe even easier) be
handled by messing with the indent-marks on the top ruler. (I'm not opposing
it, just trying to find something close to "the truth")
> I must admit however that I don't have a particular desire to actually
> implement a Word Style dialog for Lists. I personally would rather move on
> to other things. If you Joaquin want to implement I modal MS Word Dialog
> I'll gracefully bow out of the list dialog business except to provide help
> if you need it, provided that Thomas and Mike also agree that this is the
> way to go.
I think we go on to create the one we're currently working on. If/when we
later decide to create pictures of the symbols instead of their names the
Lists Dialog framework should already be in place, making that change almost
trivial.
/Mike - please don't cc
Don't try to find the bug, that's impossible.
Instead, try really hard to see the truth, there is no bug.
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